Comments on: No Piece of Cake http://webmozarts.com/2009/04/07/no-piece-of-cake/ On The Art Of Web Development Mon, 30 Aug 2010 03:06:26 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Bernhard http://webmozarts.com/2009/04/07/no-piece-of-cake/comment-page-1/#comment-390 Bernhard Thu, 06 Aug 2009 15:45:22 +0000 http://webmozarts.com/?p=33#comment-390 @Les: If you have read my post carefully, you see that I have a very deep respect for the developers of symfony. Also, I'm not speaking about the complexity of the framework itself, but of the complexity of its API. Judging someone as being a bad developer because he doesn't want to deal with unnecessarily complicated APIs is nonsense. @Les: If you have read my post carefully, you see that I have a very deep respect for the developers of symfony. Also, I’m not speaking about the complexity of the framework itself, but of the complexity of its API.

Judging someone as being a bad developer because he doesn’t want to deal with unnecessarily complicated APIs is nonsense.

]]> By: Les http://webmozarts.com/2009/04/07/no-piece-of-cake/comment-page-1/#comment-389 Les Thu, 06 Aug 2009 14:56:16 +0000 http://webmozarts.com/?p=33#comment-389 Umm > So then it’s off to the forums in hopes of finding > someone else who’s solved the same problem… Documentation or not, shouldn't you have the learnt skill to be able to cope regardless? I would think so, in fact I should expect so, if I was employing you. Going to a forum to look for a solution or answers certainly isn't the sort of behaviour I would expect, nor would I accept it - forums generally, are for those who lack skill in my opinion. Do you lack the skill? Apparently you do... Umm

> So then it’s off to the forums in hopes of finding
> someone else who’s solved the same problem…

Documentation or not, shouldn’t you have the learnt skill to be able to cope regardless? I would think so, in fact I should expect so, if I was employing you.

Going to a forum to look for a solution or answers certainly isn’t the sort of behaviour I would expect, nor would I accept it – forums generally, are for those who lack skill in my opinion.

Do you lack the skill? Apparently you do…

]]> By: Les http://webmozarts.com/2009/04/07/no-piece-of-cake/comment-page-1/#comment-388 Les Thu, 06 Aug 2009 14:51:33 +0000 http://webmozarts.com/?p=33#comment-388 Frameworks are complex today because today's Internet users expect decent software written and in a lot of cases, this involves some complexity. If person's who want to develop for the Internet are unable to deal with that complixity, then I would suggest another vocation - you are never going to get away from a given level of complexity so deal with it. Not everyone develops simple websites with limited backend interactivity, so if anything more than that is beyond your capabilities, look for another job. I loathe people who complain about this framework or that framework, and after all the work that so many people have put into it, there is a serious lack of respect for the real developers who do a damn good job and get absolutely no thanks. So yer,... either just get on with it and learn to develop to the standards set down by the framework or get off right now. Frameworks are complex today because today’s Internet users expect decent software written and in a lot of cases, this involves some complexity.

If person’s who want to develop for the Internet are unable to deal with that complixity, then I would suggest another vocation – you are never going to get away from a given level of complexity so deal with it.

Not everyone develops simple websites with limited backend interactivity, so if anything more than that is beyond your capabilities, look for another job.

I loathe people who complain about this framework or that framework, and after all the work that so many people have put into it, there is a serious lack of respect for the real developers who do a damn good job and get absolutely no thanks.

So yer,… either just get on with it and learn to develop to the standards set down by the framework or get off right now.

]]> By: pete http://webmozarts.com/2009/04/07/no-piece-of-cake/comment-page-1/#comment-60 pete Thu, 07 May 2009 20:24:47 +0000 http://webmozarts.com/?p=33#comment-60 So a little while ago, I read on a blog somewhere that the main guy who was in charge of all the documentation up until 1.2 left over differences with Fabien. Thing is, yes OO-PHP-- do it, it's a good and IMHO, necessary paradigm for a successful, powerful, and extensible PHP framework. But it can still be simple.. I think Symfony developers spend more time than devs with other frameworks just trying to figure out "OK where is the appropriate place for this?". Maybe even if someone made a map of the object hierarchies and the typical file/folder layouts-- that would make it easier for people to see the "bigger picture" easier. Overall the documentation I find decent (albeit a bit verbose at times), and the while the API docs list all methods and objects, I find the comments on the parameters of most function quite lacking, to the point where I often rather just bust open the code itself to see wtf this thing is expecting. So a little while ago, I read on a blog somewhere that the main guy who was in charge of all the documentation up until 1.2 left over differences with Fabien. Thing is, yes OO-PHP– do it, it’s a good and IMHO, necessary paradigm for a successful, powerful, and extensible PHP framework. But it can still be simple.. I think Symfony developers spend more time than devs with other frameworks just trying to figure out “OK where is the appropriate place for this?”. Maybe even if someone made a map of the object hierarchies and the typical file/folder layouts– that would make it easier for people to see the “bigger picture” easier.

Overall the documentation I find decent (albeit a bit verbose at times), and the while the API docs list all methods and objects, I find the comments on the parameters of most function quite lacking, to the point where I often rather just bust open the code itself to see wtf this thing is expecting.

]]> By: Evan http://webmozarts.com/2009/04/07/no-piece-of-cake/comment-page-1/#comment-31 Evan Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:42:34 +0000 http://webmozarts.com/?p=33#comment-31 I have to agree with ErisDS - symfony's biggest current problem is the documentation. I've been using it since .6x and I'm just starting to use the new forms framework - I like the power and flexibility but spend most of my time tracking down examples of how to do simple things. The documentation covers very general examples of each capability (not just the forms documentation but the overall framework), which would be fine if the API was thoroughly documented - but it's not. So then it's off to the forums in hopes of finding someone else who's solved the same problem... but now I find myself often coming across solutions that don't work anymore because so much has changed since 1.0. On my latest project I easily spent as much time combing over the documentation and forums for solutions as I did writing actual code... and I've got a couple years experience with the framework! I can't imagine what its like for someone who's just starting at this point. I have to agree with ErisDS – symfony’s biggest current problem is the documentation. I’ve been using it since .6x and I’m just starting to use the new forms framework – I like the power and flexibility but spend most of my time tracking down examples of how to do simple things. The documentation covers very general examples of each capability (not just the forms documentation but the overall framework), which would be fine if the API was thoroughly documented – but it’s not. So then it’s off to the forums in hopes of finding someone else who’s solved the same problem… but now I find myself often coming across solutions that don’t work anymore because so much has changed since 1.0. On my latest project I easily spent as much time combing over the documentation and forums for solutions as I did writing actual code… and I’ve got a couple years experience with the framework! I can’t imagine what its like for someone who’s just starting at this point.

]]> By: ErisDS http://webmozarts.com/2009/04/07/no-piece-of-cake/comment-page-1/#comment-28 ErisDS Mon, 13 Apr 2009 13:21:45 +0000 http://webmozarts.com/?p=33#comment-28 I think that rather than simplifying Symfony, it is the documentation that needs work. The Jobeet tutorial goes a long way towards easing in new users, but the API just doesn't give enough information regarding what a class or method is meant to do in my opinion. I think that rather than simplifying Symfony, it is the documentation that needs work. The Jobeet tutorial goes a long way towards easing in new users, but the API just doesn’t give enough information regarding what a class or method is meant to do in my opinion.

]]> By: Nicolas Martin http://webmozarts.com/2009/04/07/no-piece-of-cake/comment-page-1/#comment-16 Nicolas Martin Fri, 10 Apr 2009 10:10:57 +0000 http://webmozarts.com/?p=33#comment-16 The only Symfony's flaw is that is made out of PHP ! Which still suffers from its reputation of being a crappy easy-to-use scripting language. What makes Symfony a very promising framework is that it brings OO programming, best practices and good designs to the PHP world, and aims at raising the overall quality of PHP-based softwares. The only Symfony’s flaw is that is made out of PHP ! Which still suffers from its reputation of being a crappy easy-to-use scripting language.

What makes Symfony a very promising framework is that it brings OO programming, best practices and good designs to the PHP world, and aims at raising the overall quality of PHP-based softwares.

]]> By: Bernhard http://webmozarts.com/2009/04/07/no-piece-of-cake/comment-page-1/#comment-15 Bernhard Thu, 09 Apr 2009 21:43:37 +0000 http://webmozarts.com/?p=33#comment-15 @Alan: I don't think simplicity and pure OO structure exclude each other. The question is how, how complicated and how feature-rich you design your classes. In my opinion the YAML format Francois suggested looked nice at the first glance, but had its flaws, as Fabien pointed out. You would have had to learn everything twice, once how you do it in YAML and once how you do it in PHP. I think we need a pure PHP concept: One with good conventions and an easy to use interface. One that requires only very few modifications in common cases. @Alan: I don’t think simplicity and pure OO structure exclude each other. The question is how, how complicated and how feature-rich you design your classes.

In my opinion the YAML format Francois suggested looked nice at the first glance, but had its flaws, as Fabien pointed out. You would have had to learn everything twice, once how you do it in YAML and once how you do it in PHP. I think we need a pure PHP concept: One with good conventions and an easy to use interface. One that requires only very few modifications in common cases.

]]> By: Alan Jones http://webmozarts.com/2009/04/07/no-piece-of-cake/comment-page-1/#comment-14 Alan Jones Thu, 09 Apr 2009 09:35:07 +0000 http://webmozarts.com/?p=33#comment-14 Seems this was already discussed long ago, and Fabien's answer was: I don't want simplicity, I want pure OO structure. If you're not good enough to get symfony quickly, then stay with Code Igniter. His reaction was abrupt enough to make the co-founder of the framework leave the project. http://redotheweb.com/2008/09/23/document-driven-development-in-practice-rethinking-sfforms/ Seems this was already discussed long ago, and Fabien’s answer was: I don’t want simplicity, I want pure OO structure. If you’re not good enough to get symfony quickly, then stay with Code Igniter. His reaction was abrupt enough to make the co-founder of the framework leave the project.

http://redotheweb.com/2008/09/23/document-driven-development-in-practice-rethinking-sfforms/

]]> By: lloyd27 http://webmozarts.com/2009/04/07/no-piece-of-cake/comment-page-1/#comment-11 lloyd27 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 09:03:04 +0000 http://webmozarts.com/?p=33#comment-11 IMHO, symfony is not a framework for such a stupid developer :) symfony is by far the best PHP framework, but you HAVE to know what we're talking about. It's not a framework for beginners, or people that don't even know what a Singleton (just for say one pattern) is. No doubt it takes a lot of time to study it, at first, but once you got the big picture, you know how to do almost everything, and you can really do it.. The Form Framework was not created for lazy developers who want something to get things done quickly. It's raw power :) And the drawback is that is a bit complicated, at first. But it surely worths the pain :) IMHO, symfony is not a framework for such a stupid developer :)

symfony is by far the best PHP framework, but you HAVE to know what we’re talking about. It’s not a framework for beginners, or people that don’t even know what a Singleton (just for say one pattern) is.
No doubt it takes a lot of time to study it, at first, but once you got the big picture, you know how to do almost everything, and you can really do it..

The Form Framework was not created for lazy developers who want something to get things done quickly. It’s raw power :) And the drawback is that is a bit complicated, at first. But it surely worths the pain :)

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